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feedbot: << Young Hands Club -- WH Review of Week 16 (Jan 27th - Feb 2nd)
whaack: diana_coman: EOD Report: I published my article w/ the ircbot reconnection vpatch and wrote my review of the week. I spent the evening getting drinks with my new neighbor billymg
diana_coman: - hm, why? I can see the point if you expect this sort of accidental to happen much but otherwise dunno, if one wants the bot in there, one should not kick it "accidentally" and certainly not complain if they have to wait for it to get back if/when they kick it.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-31 21:38:43 trinque: I didn't want "oops I accidentally kicked the bot" to require human interaction.
diana_coman: - hopefully you remember that next time and go directly for learning what you need, heh.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-02-01 00:24:52 whaack: made the mistake of manaloning and attempting solutions that took time and gave me nothing in return. I am now going through a guide on networking, learning the commands jfw mentioned.
diana_coman: - epsilon!
ossabot: Logged on 2020-02-01 15:38:57 jfw: Seeing as how I'm just starting now, I've got about zero chance of finishing review and plan by my 21:00 UTC deadline.
diana_coman: - ha! who blogs this first?
ossabot: Logged on 2020-02-02 01:34:17 whaack: diana_coman: EOD Report: I published my article w/ the ircbot reconnection vpatch and wrote my review of the week. I spent the evening getting drinks with my new neighbor billymg
whaack: trinque: I agree with diana_coman and so in the end decided to remove the rejoin on kick feature altogether
whaack: billymg: do you have handy the css update that removes horizontal scrolling?
whaack: In advice I wish I had listened to earlier there are good prices for long term car rentals. I think I'm going to go to liberia today and rent a car for a month, it'll run me just a little over $500.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 16:28:24 diana_coman: whaack: you can always *rent* a car too, no/
travel_billy: << it was a good time, whaack's in a gorgeous beachfront location
ossabot: Logged on 2020-02-02 04:45:16 diana_coman: - ha! who blogs this first?
travel_billy: whaack: << i don't have an updated patch yet (still waiting to resolve the discussing around open/close tags) but this css should fix the formatting issues
travel_billy: discussion*
whaack: travel_billy: ty
whaack: travel_billy: is the wind howling where you are like it is here?
travel_billy: it is indeed, the trees are swaying nicely
dorion: diana_coman here's the outline I have so far :
lobbes: diana_coman: instead of our standing 7:30 pm UTC meeting I would like to put together an article explaining what's on my mind. It would be an easier medium for me to reference various things and string together my thoughts (plus I can communicate to several parties that I owe stuff to at once)
lobbes: To sum it up though: I'm falling behind with basically everything in my life atm, so I think I need to take that signal as something needs to change. Specifically from the cause of wanting greater control of my life I think I need to pull back a bit and refocus on some basic things first that I've been ignoring.
diana_coman: dorion: I need to sort out some irl unexpecteds but I'll be back in half an hour max
lobbes: This is kinda related to your always-very-rational-apparently point I think; I need to get my other leg back online first before I can really be productive
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-18 14:06:12 diana_coman: - because you were going at it on *one leg only*; in short, you knew what you needed to do but you didn't care to do it and both those things matter, you can't just cut one out and pretend that the other takes over both functions.
diana_coman: lobbes: go ahead re article.
lobbes: diana_coman: ok
dorion: diana_coman ok, best and talk soon.
lobbes will be back in a few; grabbing food / doing some errands then will start article
BingoBoingo having difficulties reading the string "going to go to liberia" without red flags raising and alarms sounding
dorion always thinks of the liberia lincoln promoted to maintain segregation.
diana_coman: dorion: back and read your outline; do you know what's the role of scope when you decide to write something?
diana_coman fishes out the notes on prev version too, 1 sec
dorion: I'm thinking the role of scope is to prevent tangents from distracting the reader of the point you want them to take away.
diana_coman: dorion: the outline you pasted clearly tries to provide some structure but it runs rather unequally in several directions and mainly because you haven't fully decided on either scope or focus.
diana_coman: dorion: only in part and not even the main part; the role of scope is to clearly delineate (hence also help you at writing time choose and the reader at reading time evaluate) what the text covers and what is not covered.
dorion: diana_coman one thought that returned while making this one, which you also noted in previous comments, was to first start with an article focuses on the topic of one's interest.
diana_coman: if your scope is too wide, you'll end up writing 10 volumes; if it's too narrow, you'll not get to say much interesting to the user (at one extreme I suppose you could see copywriting as an extremely narrow scope thing)
diana_coman: the "user" is the reader above, ofc; ( /me shakes user loose from head)
diana_coman: dorion: re-reading your 1st article a bit earlier, it struck me that it really reads like you wrote it with some luggage, hm; let me extract this more clearly.
dorion: diana_coman makes sense re scope.
diana_coman: dorion: version 1 of your article sounds at times like a sales pitch (though you switch from one audience to another)
diana_coman: dorion: btw, what's with the soundbites reliance anyway?
diana_coman: is this due to the environment there or is it deliberate/do you realise you do it there or what?
diana_coman: dorion: say something.
dorion: diana_coman soundbites as in the blockquotes to reference ?
dorion: diana_coman luggage in the brain load sense ?
ossabot: (eulora) 2020-01-10 mircea_popescu: there;s this important factor nobody seems to realize, about brain load. if you're trying to work while loaded with articles you've not written, you take longer. much like if you try to drive a truck you didn't unload, you'll take longer.
diana_coman: dorion: luggage in the sense of unexamined habits/practices
diana_coman: the possible brain load would not show that directly in that it might slow you down, but it doesn't directly change the text.
dorion: diana_coman hm. for sure I expect I have unexamined habits and also habits I'm aware of to a degree that haven't been examined enough for me to replace.
diana_coman: dorion: re soundbites, it's a more general thing ie you tend to shorten your text more by importing constructions & terms known *in a certain environment* than by concise focus on some core idea; and when those accumulate also, it all sounds very copywriting style essentially.
dorion: diana_coman I see sales as talking with people to identify problems and help them determine if the problem is big enough for them to be motivated to solve.
dorion: diana_coman that makes sense. instead of doing the work of distilling into my own text, I import what someone else said.
diana_coman: dorion: sure; the problem is not sales per se, lol; if anything and after having read that .pdf from the crypto-something, I suspect what creeps in is that environment you have there.
diana_coman: dorion: exactly that, well said.
diana_coman: now, circling back to those notes of mine building on your version 1 + the previous discussion: 1. what is the full set of points from which you said last time you ended up selected only the top 2?
diana_coman: 2. you said part of the trouble was that you were trying to figure out some concepts at the same time as using them; did you list what those were and/or did you figure them out properly meanwhile?
diana_coman: dorion: re short & convincing, you can certainly aim for that too, but it will really work best as a 2nd step, *after* a well written article that really drills down into the details
dorion: diana_coman I need a couple minutes to gather the responses.
diana_coman: in no small part precisely because an article is meant to provide that sort of depth; and in part because your audience is basically more diverse than the usual you-have-5-minutes-to-make-your-pitch or similar.
diana_coman: dorion: take your time; fwiw, there's more too, so prepare yourself, lol.
dorion: diana_coman nice and prepared :)
dorion: re 1 : kernel with trng, de-uefizing modern hardware, Bitcoin (not in the money sense alone) re-institutes a functional hierarchy with steeper peaks - which makes humanities possible.
dorion: re 2. I don't think I have them fully worked out, but they are : a) what makes a functional identity, b) what constitutes one's interests, c) what is meant by EV.
diana_coman: ah, I see.
dorion: re a) what is an identity generally and what makes one strong in the modern world.
diana_coman: dorion: how do you know/decide when you have something "fully worked out" ? heh
dorion: diana_coman grasping the word by word meaning, which I typically explore the etymology to determine/clarify.
diana_coman: well, that risks the trouble with not seeing the woods for the trees among other things.
diana_coman: (which I'm even rather surprised at, coming from you, huh)
diana_coman: anyways, let's roll this back a bit so it gets where we were heading to start with (see, this is scope in action really)
diana_coman: dorion: in your outline, you qualify "subject" as the starting point; the subject of an article though is not at all "the starting point" but the central topic that you aim to talk about
dorion: diana_coman ah, ok re subject.
diana_coman: given one topic, you can choose all sorts of starting points really and they are not even all that fixed upfront ie you can re-write even the same thing, just starting from a different point.
diana_coman: the subject is however something you need to be very clear on upfront because it has to be the focus of everything really
diana_coman: so, first of all: what is your chosen subject for this article?
dorion: right now I'm unsure if I should go with one article or a series.
diana_coman: that is not a concern at this stage
diana_coman: don't worry about that just yet, you'll get plenty of time (and enough info) to decide on it later
diana_coman: first of all: what is your subject aka central topic
dorion: that contributing to and operating tmsr os is in a given individual's interest.
dorion: I wrote long term at first, but then removed.
diana_coman: dorion: if you aim it like that on a given individual's interest, you get the trouble of... individuals being individuals, heh; how about "the benefits of tmsr-os" as overall topic that can then branch easily into contributing and using it, if need be
diana_coman: basically to get clarity (and understanding really), you need to build and maintain trees, that's what it is; if you find yourself running around from one thing to another and lost in details, you need to abstract one level up; if you run out of abstractions/have nothing to say, you need to drill down
diana_coman: that long term for instance is exactly an example of lower down in the tree; each of the above branches can further have their own short-term and long-term respectively
diana_coman: dorion: the thing is also: whatever benefits there are, they will stem out of necessity from what tmsr-os is (which in turn means also the wider environment since nothing is in a vacuum, sure); but the individuals come into all this only afterwards and they do not drive the benefits really, regardless of what they'd like to think.
diana_coman: so that's why your subject as such is tmsr-os with the scope already getting some shape from focusing the discussion on benefits rather than everything else
dorion: diana_coman ok on "the benefits of tmsr-os". the point about individuals is that the fiat system is not sustainable, but as I write it occurs that some are dying everyday who've lived off that system and avoided the short term pain of change for long term gain.
diana_coman: dorion: you can still bring in that point but notice that is one point aka one leaf in your tree and we're still just clarifying the root, lol
diana_coman: and yeah, need some branches to get there
dorion: diana_coman ok, right. and the above makes sense.
diana_coman: so now, from the benefits of tmsr-os, do you want to focus on contributors only, on users only or branch on this so you have both?
diana_coman: (and you see, at each branch, if it ends up too much, you can always decide to make a different article; but that's a decision for when you know "this is such a big branch that it could be its own article)
diana_coman: btw, if you are into visual thinking, that's probably where those mindmap things can be useful.
dorion: diana_coman both I think because it seems natural that potential contributors would use prior to contributing. so then establish the use case first, then expand to contributing.
dorion: thanks for the tip, but I always found those mindmap softwares too cumbersome to use. I'll stick with vim.
diana_coman: well, for that matter you can cut it differently and focus it all instead on the very rationale for the project to start with, having then benefits of users/contributors as consequences of this (and thus getting less space in it)
diana_coman: I didn't even mean mindmap software, can be hand-written if it's any use; fwiw no, I never found them useful either but I know people who work better with them so whatever works for one at the end of the day.
dorion: yeah, the rationale is even more to the root. so "why tmsr-os came to be" rather than "the benefits of tmsr-os"
diana_coman: dorion: exactly.
dorion: diana_coman cool, thanks a lot!
diana_coman: heh, you're not done, lol
diana_coman: that why tmsr-os came to be needs to be split and scoped too or you'll end up talking of how bitcoin came to be as well
diana_coman: dorion: does the above exercise give you at least some idea re the process on this sort of thing?
dorion can see it, rebuckles seatbelt.
dorion: diana_coman it's a good example, will probably take re-reads and practice to sink in, but let's try in realtime.
diana_coman: dorion: so then, from the "why tmsr-os came to be" node, which branches do you see and which ones are you going to follow and why them?
dorion: my first thought is tmsr-os came to be because of V, which came to be because of Bitcoin.
diana_coman: mmm, V gives the shape, not the rationale though
diana_coman: dorion: how about those steps: aim first for a minimal tree with the root tmsr-os itself, see what you get on that, include branches on environment as much as you consider relevant
diana_coman: not right now, obv, take some time, do that, come with it.
dorion: one branch of the rationale is that point on meaning being established through authority. another, perhaps related, is trust being implicit in the modern computing environment given the sprawl of complexity.
jfw publishes, has been skimming here on the side, turns attention now to log
jfw: whaack: - double win!
ossabot: Logged on 2020-02-02 01:34:17 whaack: diana_coman: EOD Report: I published my article w/ the ircbot reconnection vpatch and wrote my review of the week. I spent the evening getting drinks with my new neighbor billymg
diana_coman: jfw: welcome to the branching log!
dorion: a summary of a baker's dozen days, look at jfw go!
diana_coman: dorion: I can see it in there but you will need to bridge it in
jfw: diana_coman: - I've seen the term around here indeed but yet uncertain of the meaning. Is it "almost but not quite zero" deriving from the delta/epsilon definition of the limit?
ossabot: Logged on 2020-02-02 04:44:40 diana_coman: - epsilon!
diana_coman: dorion: you still fresh enough to go through a closer highlight of the jumps and troubles in your version 1 article?
dorion: diana_coman the first there or the second ? it occured the first (meaning flowing from authority, i.e. sovereignty) may be the root. and as a consequence, nothing is upstream of tmsr-os.
diana_coman: jfw: it is indeed; I never realised that would not be obvious, but now you asked, it dawns on me it might actually be "obvious" only based on a certain way Maths was taught, huh.
dorion: diana_coman i'm fresh.
diana_coman: dorion: meaning being established through authority can be one root indeed and certainly ancestor of anything you want to bring in re implicit trust in current environment
diana_coman: anyways, give this a go and come back with what comes out of it
ossabot: Logged on 2020-02-02 17:13:46 diana_coman: dorion: how about those steps: aim first for a minimal tree with the root tmsr-os itself, see what you get on that, include branches on environment as much as you consider relevant
diana_coman: dorion: now, on version 1 :
dorion: - ok.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-02-02 17:21:53 diana_coman: anyways, give this a go and come back with what comes out of it
diana_coman: you start with a statement that the reader's interest is derived from who they are (which is arguably obvious so fine) but then you qualify this with "ie your identity, signature, name, words and actions"
diana_coman: which is already one jump in itself
diana_coman: because you pick there a list and don't give any reason nor even indication as to how/why you picked those bits precisely
diana_coman: it is an enumeration in format but those things are not even the same sort really
dorion: diana_coman yeah, kind of a big jump too.
diana_coman: dorion: the next paragraph introduces all of a sudden the "strong individual identity"
diana_coman: so now the identity is proposed to be strong or weak but again - why and where did this come from?
diana_coman: from that "expensive to replicate" it would seem to me you actually moved from a mainstream notion of "identity" to the republican one, based on rsa but you never as much as hint at this or even at there being a difference at all
dorion: diana_coman I was going for who you are is what you do, and also how others perceive what you do, i.e. identify you.
dorion: diana_coman should I let you identify the gaps here and then reply one at a time ?
diana_coman: dorion: there you are touching then on yet another important bit that can't be just skimmed over - who you are is one thing; your own knowledge of who you are is however another thing; and your identity is a social construct
diana_coman: a whole forest in there
diana_coman: and you need to be aware of it quite explicitly so you choose a path rather than drop this or that as it comes
diana_coman: dorion: yes, let me go now through the list, apparently if I didn't write it up earlier, I'm doing it now anyway
diana_coman: next, from strong signatures (that you link at least to the strong identity, if not with much detail/argument, more of a statement of fact) you bring in yet another thing: "sound contracts" and those being pillar of commerce
diana_coman: which fine, they are but ...where did *those* come from in your text so far?
diana_coman: and why commerce all of a sudden when it wasn't even mentioned before; why not war, why not sex, those are after all quite important for identity too!
diana_coman: words and actions,lol
diana_coman: having dropped the contracts and commerce in, the paragraph then steps back with what tmsr uses for identification purposes apparently
diana_coman: I can see the thought there ie signatures hence rsa but's not in the text, it's outside of it really
diana_coman: and moreover, if you drop those acronyms in there, it's *those* you want to link/footnote if you aim also for non-tmsr audience
diana_coman: moving on, the next paragraph/sentence talk of more effective tools being essentially good than (supposedly) less effective tools
diana_coman: point granted with a side of raised eyebrows as to the need for it here; the increased leverage uhm, isn't that "more effective", yes? and what is "resourceful commerce" ?
diana_coman: next paragraph circles back on using "identity tools" but it's the first time those are named as such (and yes, I can see which and why you mean but take pity on a poor reader without all the background - how are they supposed to have any idea what this new construct is now?)
diana_coman: and then the text takes apparently a publicity break to inform the reader that if effective in contribution then contribution is ...quite effective at strenghtening as apparently it has been noted above though it's the first time tmsr-os is mentioned other than in title + the first sentence
diana_coman: money comes in and at least it's likely to make all readers pay attention so good; but then: you are well advised, says the guide
diana_coman: and whom? why? whaaaat?
diana_coman: value function, bitcoin makes an appearance, peer to peer is mentioned though not introduced (in either form or function) and adamant is invited to give a speech in the middle of the text.
diana_coman: once the speech suffered through (without any clear reason as to the reason WHY should one go through it), the guide is back with... everybody knows
diana_coman: dorion: do not, ever, "everyone knows" in a text!
diana_coman: lolz
diana_coman: and off to fiat lands for the spell of one paragraph
diana_coman: (btw, you reader, still following and still keeping track of all those rabbits jumping about ?)
diana_coman: because we are close to the end, mercifully, as we find out that "that's what we're aiming for here with this OS" (because and because)
diana_coman: all of it in one sentence, since it's enough space to find out - be told! - that bitcoin is also an os (is this tmsr-os ? a different os? how different? why? is then bitcoin "this os" from the starting clause?)
diana_coman: and then the guide tells readers they are also not worth much more effort really: there's more he could say (DO believe it!) but he ...won't say it!
diana_coman: because... dunno, apparently they should do some work too in the comments or something
diana_coman: dorion: fin.
dorion: perhaps by that time I had exhausted myself out from all the gaps I'd been jumping over, but didn't take that as I sign that I should slam the brakes and ask for help.
diana_coman: sounds very possible indeed.
diana_coman: then again, you wouldn't have gotten a full blown review, so there.
diana_coman: dorion: does the above clarify the "what are the jumps" and how incomprehensible it is?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-20 16:01:19 dorion_road: diana_coman I think your summary does fit the text, I think I need more time to see just how incomprehensible the first section is.
dorion: diana_coman lol. yeah, for sure clarifies. I really appreciate the full blown review cause not sure I'd have pieced it together on my own steam. there's nothing I dispute in what you said, I think the best I can do at this point is to acknowledge the appreciation by making this a comment there and making a note at the top to apologize in advance to the reader and to take heart that the comments
dorion: provide relief.
dorion: and more than anything this article is a good example of the ossasepia in action, so come over to #o if you're stretching to grow.
diana_coman: dorion: you're very welcome :)
diana_coman: and I guess it's there next to bad titles vs asking questions illustration.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-27 16:39:24 diana_coman: and look at that, bad titles are better than good titles - at least at getting a different perspective since neither of you asked a question otherwise :P
diana_coman: dorion: tell me something though, did you never have any help or did you never let anyone help or why is the very notion of help such alien to you?
dorion: diana_coman hm. I know in athletics, the center of my first 20 years, I had a lot of good help many times and enjoyed, relished good coaches. on the education side though I was pretty disinterested until about 20, at which point I had to fight to work on what I determined mattered.
diana_coman: dorion: you know, the principles are still the very same though; sure, a different sort of pain, but still pain too; it's a different type but of the same thing really.
dorion: probably an unexamined bad habit that's coming into the light here.
dorion: finding my feet has been a bumpy road.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-29 16:52:22 diana_coman: dorion: you see, that's the thing, when you say "my past" you forget that it includes not only coinapult and assorted similars but also all your own growth and following your own mind and finding your feet from what I gathered from those outlines
diana_coman: well, fight does mean no expectation of help, obviously, but... you won that fight already, no need to fight the help too, lol.
dorion: I think there's some protection mechanism built in from people that I looked up to and that mentored me (either directly or indirectly through reading/listening to them) later turning out to be a lot smaller and/or less trustworthy than I thought.
diana_coman: dorion: I can see how that can be; but look at it properly: what sort of protection is that to apply the breaks to learning instead of improving the evaluation/choice of mentors?
diana_coman: it is also true that at the end of the day, it might very well be that any and all living people will turn out "a lot smaller" than you thought - after all, that has to do with what you think and nobody can ever stop you from thinking people anything at all
dorion: diana_coman I think I've moved in that direction of improving evaluation/choice of mentors, which is in part why I stayed in the shadows, but finally showed up here. there's probably a part that's still in the past though, so now the challenge/opportunity is to be fully present.
diana_coman: it's not as much that they did something or the other; it's always that your evaluation did not match what was there to start with; but that - like everything else - is something you get better at with practice and - inevitably - with failures in different degrees/at different times, sure.
dorion: right. and the other part is to better integrate what I've learned from others and experience and act out the inner mentor - with the caveat that the inner mentor know when and how to ask for help.
diana_coman: anyway, it's at least in clear in the open and that's quite a lot in itself so... keep up the good work on it, is all.
dorion: yeah, thanks for helping to bring it out.
diana_coman: yw
diana_coman calls it a long-enough day.
dorion: diana_coman cheers!
jfw: - I've been noticing this conceptual trees model a lot lately: nodes down the tree of idiocy, Everything's a something to a something else, except for the world
ossabot: Logged on 2020-02-02 16:49:37 diana_coman: basically to get clarity (and understanding really), you need to build and maintain trees, that's what it is; if you find yourself running around from one thing to another and lost in details, you need to abstract one level up; if you run out of abstractions/have nothing to say, you need to drill down
ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-30 04:19:17 diana_coman: - the result of my dive into that specific swamp was after all that they are all quite the same wrt to want-account-won't-gpg; the differences are at most a couple of nodes down the tree of idiocy from there, with asiatics especially automated in the worst way possible; so on that side, the best I can currently say I saw at least is some that respond qui
whaack: Well, I have to admit to another car related failure that could have been easily avoided. The price I received from 'expedia' was 1/3 of what the agency asked for at the desk. The $530 rental had $1000+ in required taxes + insurance. I decided not to rent the car.
whaack: BingoBoingo: Not sure if that was a joke re Africa, but your red flags and alarms were right for one reason.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-02-02 15:33:31 BingoBoingo: having difficulties reading the string "going to go to liberia" without red flags raising and alarms sounding
jfw: whaack: ouch, that's about the daily rate I paid in USA in December, short-term with ALL the insurance
jfw: there at least the marketing is based on assumption that everyone already has insurance policy for the car back home
whaack: jfw: wait, what was your daily rate? $530 / 30?
dorion: whaack did you click through expedia all the way to the end to get a total from them or just extrapolate the topline daily rate over a month ?

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