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diana_coman: !!up #ossasepia newland0
deedbot: newland0 voiced for 30 minutes.
diana_coman: hi newland0
newland0: Hi, I joined after seeing this:
sonofawitch: 2020-02-08 11:11:48 (#ossasepia) diana_coman: d41r2: to make it perfectly clear: you have the choice to go through all the log, collect those questions you ignored or refused to answer so far and then answer them in here one by one; only after you do that, you may ask for further clarification and/or talk in here; alternatively, you can of course either register a new key and restart this in a saner way and without all the stupid or o
newland0: and figured, "this might be a place where one can learn things occasionally"
diana_coman: it happens, indeed
diana_coman: newland0: have you found ?
diana_coman: !!key newland0
deedbot: Not registered.
newland0: looking
diana_coman: take your time; and ask your questions, too.
newland0: why V instead of git? git is more code, but it's a full toolset that can be used essentially the same way and more
diana_coman: newland0: how do you figure "the same way" ?
diana_coman: even "essentially the same way", heh
newland0: V seems like a way to exchange software and patches with trusted users
newland0: git can do that also, so what am I missing?
diana_coman: well, in between "seems like" and "can do that" there's a whole lot of "missing", you know? how can you go "can do that" when all you have for "that" is "it seems so"
trinque: the order in which you stack things matters.
diana_coman: let me dig out some refs for you, anyways
trinque: one can bolt some crypto to the side of his git.
trinque: this isn't the same as saying "the fundamental unit of the written word is a signed patch"
trinque: there are plenty of niceties I'd benefit from, were they built into a mature v client.
trinque: they come on top of the sense, not before it.
diana_coman: eh, and identity and what user even means and code starting with the *reader* not the writer ...
diana_coman: there's a whole maze of roots from which the "seems so" tiny leaf sprouts
diana_coman: newland0: here's a quite recent talk re defining V anyway, perhaps it's easier to read and get some idea; then there is my attempted summary and from there you have also the canonical links to follow and the history and ~all of it.
newland0: "there are plenty of niceties I'd benefit from" - yes
sonofawitch: 2020-06-23 21:14:56 (#ossasepia) jfw: diana_coman: I'm trying for a concise intro/description of V, in the present (post-Republic) context. Does this about capture it: "versioning system that supports owner control of computing by placing primary focus on the change and explicit management of trust through strong cryptography" ?
diana_coman: newland0: how did you find the find that brought you here anyway?
newland0: originally, saw a reference to trilema article(s) about wordpress xmlrpc.php being used as a ddos
newland0: then other clicking around, recent comments, etc
diana_coman: ah, so you just found trilema and then got in here? heh, not bad; only...take it slowly, there is a LOT to it; on the bright side, there is also plenty of time, no hurry.
newland0: the rest of the info about v seems to answer the other part of my question
newland0: "why not 'just' make git act as desired"
diana_coman: newland0: on a side note, I've been toiling for...years already to make a different pile of ...code let's say so we keep it civil, "act as desired"
newland0: is that wp or something else?
newland0: and not that git is amazingly coherent but it does offer all operations needed to manipulate patch chains
diana_coman: see the Eulora category on my blog if you are ever curious; no, it's Eulora's client
newland0: ok
diana_coman: newland0: among the usual versioning system (ie pre-V), git is indeed the most useful, yes; this doesn't make it any sort of V though and the lack is fundamental; as trinque points out, one can glue to it whatever on the side but that's hardly worth doing.
newland0: depends on priorities
diana_coman: newland0: what are your priorities?
diana_coman: (and no, you can't make a car by attaching an engine to a cart, no matter what your priorities are)
newland0: "just get something reasonable working" vs "build it right", in that case
diana_coman: what's unreasonable about V? lol
newland0: no, "passable" vs "close to ideal"
diana_coman: otherwise yes, indeed, there is certainly the sane "get it to work" vs the insane "gotta be perfect because the world is now perfect too" but V implementation is the working type, not the perfect sort
trinque: this seems like a fruitless tack newland0, everyone here has used git.
trinque: I'm curious what you actually want to know, as I think it's a layer beneath this question
newland0: I think that starts to answer my question anyway, "why not use git for this?" "because you would get something perhaps barely passable"
newland0: questions are tricky things
newland0: and v (read only a tiny bit about it) vs git (used it every day for years) seemed like as good a starting point here as any
trinque: there isn't really so much of a "vs" to it.
newland0: in the sense of using a known reference point to try to understand something else, not in the sense of competition
trinque: v solved a problem we had, which was more important to us than the problem you perceive that git solves.
newland0: ok
newland0: going to read more about that later, thanks for the context
trinque: happy to continue to discuss whenever
diana_coman: newland0: in your terms, I guess the answer would indeed be "because git is not passable"
trinque: newland0: there are plenty of sad tales to read in re: trying to self-host linux, finding that upstream hosts of "packages" suddenly disappear, etc
trinque: they lead to "why v"
diana_coman: !!up #ossasepia newland0
deedbot: newland0 voiced for 30 minutes.
diana_coman: newland0: if you register a key with deedbot, I'll rate you and then you can !!up yourself (once per connection is enough, too)
newland0: ok, multitasking, back later to do that
diana_coman: no rush; usually I'm around for 1-2 hours starting from 7pm utc ; there may be others at other times but that's when the chan can get liveliest.
newland0: got it

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